Our first topic to discuss tonight is all about pets. Lions, would you please discuss how pets fit into our modern society, what kind of challenges do we face on this front?
Deedi
As Lyli already said, there is a distinction to be made between domesticated species and wildlife. I feel it is wrong to take wildlife and insert it into urban living or keep such species in captivity.
Lady Lylith Dustcloud
As Personally.. what Deedi said is true... they are companions.. but seeing as a companion is also a term for a follower of sorts.. most often sentient with whom you can have actual conversation it's.. an iffy name.. but so is pet.. especially in the modern society where it is often used in.. certain ways.. most often the.. sexual one.. Thus in my opinion.. neither of these terms really fi-.. don't look at me like that...
Deedi
What do you mean by that last bit?
Lady Lylith Dustcloud
Alright well, erm.. in.. certain.. erm, how do I put it in the lightest of ways.. in certain groups.. amongst society.. especially so the more erotic orientation.. making someone your.. pet.. or being the pet for someone is.. a bit like a much softer term then.. a slave for the moment… You.. enjoy being used.. or you use that other individual… at times with.. a leash and such.. Anyway.. and seeing as these too are named.. pets.. it.. underlines that.. calling an animal friend.. or companion as pet is as if you were to.. push a certain sllavery onto them.. that their life is now yours..
Halite Rocksalt
Right, we should move on from that.
Professor Rathmir Fallowweald
Myes, or we'll be sitting here discussing whether or not a dog walker is actually a pimp.
Deedi
I do agree on the possessive nature of the term pet.
Professor Rathmir Fallowweald
Yes, yes, animals are slaves, prisoners. We can go from there. It's always been like that. That's why we've domesticated them in the first place, isn't it. They're hard workers, and not intelligent enough to ask for payment or worker's rights.
Deedi
But isn't it wrong to exploit other living and feeling beings? Shouldn't we do our best to treat them right even if they plow our fields or pull our carts?
Lady Lylith Dustcloud
In a way.. sadly yeah tho in other times.. the people domesticating them.. saw a use in their skills.. of being a hunter or able to carry a lot.. in a way.. society has enslaved the animals around them.. but one would never ask something of them that they can't do.. like.. you wouldn't ask for your dog's milk.. whilst with a cow it's a lot easier… Of course.. but same as with Belomi.. she probably came from a long family line of domestication…
Perhaps at one time her.. ancestors were large dogs or even wolves.. with whom others hunted...
Deedi
I am not saying that using animals for specific purposes is wrong but that we should treat them right for services rendered.
Professor Rathmir Fallowweald
Seems like an obvious stance to take. But this doesn't even work perfectly for people. Sentient people, who we are not so good at taking care of.
Lady Lylith Dustcloud
Well of course… but imagine.. a hunter and their companion.. they.. perhaps managed to defeat a large warlord.. would you ask for both of them to receive the same rewards.. and gratitudes?...
Deedi
I do agree, Professor. We could do a lot better in taking care of those down on their luck and facing hardships, be they humanoids or animals.
And no, an animal has no use for coins but the hunter has and could and should use part of the coins to treat the companion.
But this goes too deep already, I am just advocating to not treat animals as slaves or subservient employees but as living beings with their own mind and feelings.
Lady Lylith Dustcloud
Of course.. but then again.. the animal would be down on it's luck to hope for the other's mercy.. and once more.. we have an imbalance.. in how they were treated for their services.
Professor Rathmir Fallowweald
Indeed. How can we treat them fairly as equals, if they have no agency of their own. We're left with guesswork as to what is in their best interest.
Lady Lylith Dustcloud
It's a hard topic.. and one I.. could personally not answer.. as I am not in the position that some of these animals are.. for me it's.. in a way natural.. as harsh as it may sound..
Deedi
Well, accepting their wishes and also letting them have their way at times, respecting them as living beings and forming a mutual respectful relationship.
Professor Rathmir Fallowweald
Scratch them behind the ear, telling them they're a good girl, giving them a bone to gnaw on. That's about what they expect from us.
Lady Lylith Dustcloud
But without understanding it's hard.. and when they are already domesticated.. perhaps this is.. what they wish for?.. to have some snuggles.. food.. and a cozy place to sleep.
Professor Rathmir Fallowweald
And I shan't say I disagree with your stance that animals should be treated with a modicum of respect. But they are still animals, simple in function.
Deedi
I only state how Belomi and myself interact with each other. I do not claim to have the best way or a recipe on how to do it but I see that she is happy and I am happy, both our sentiments are important in this equation.
Lady Lylith Dustcloud
Then again.. she is domesticated.. perhaps she was.. trained to be happy with what you give her..
Deedi
And yes, Lily, due to the fact dogs are domesticated they already have a high compatibility with us.
Professor Rathmir Fallowweald
And that sort of owner-pet relationship is simple enough to make right.
Deedi
I do not own her, I am her friend and she is mine. If she decides she wants to leave, I will be very sad but I will respect her decision.
Lady Lylith Dustcloud
Well she knows that she is being treated right by you, thus she stays~.
Professor Rathmir Fallowweald
Yet, she remains in your care, and not the other way around. Thus you are still her owner. Or caretaker, let's use that word.
Deedi
In a legal and humanoid society way, yes. I will pick up her poop she made on the streets since she doesn't know it is not okay to do that and I need to make it right as her representative in the humanoid world.
Professor Rathmir Fallowweald
A-ha, so is it truly you who are the subservient one in this scenario.
Deedi
I pick it up because I know the issue it creates and thus as a gesture of friendship will take care of the problem for her.
Professor Rathmir Fallowweald
I jest, of course.
Deedi
Just because it is an asymmetrical relationship doesn't mean it has to be hierarchical.
Professor Rathmir Fallowweald
And hierarchical is what we trend towards, regardless.
Deedi
I do not, Professor. Maybe I am the odd one out in this but I prefer it that way.
Professor Rathmir Fallowweald
Oh, I quite admire that. Would be that everyone shared that line of thought.
Halite Rocksalt
I think we have covered a lot of ground. One topic that often comes up, at least here in Stormwind, is the question of whether or not leashes and cages are necessary. What are your thoughts on this?
Lady Lylith Dustcloud
Well some are still not domesticated.. or domesticated enough.. Hence why for some this is still a necessity.. same as with Dogs not knowing scientific advancements.. so how should they know.. not to just run from one side of Ironforge to the other..
Deedi
Leashes are a tool and when used when necessary can be valuable, cages on the other hand are a bit too severe. If you have to keep an animal in a cage so it doesn't run away, people shouldn't keep them in the first place.
Professor Rathmir Fallowweald
Leashes are a necessity in civilised society. It's not quite as bad here in Stormwind as it was on the other side of the divide... but I have seen bears roam free. Madness, that is.
Lady Lylith Dustcloud
It's.. sadly proven that the brain of most animal kinds is a lot smaller than those of sentient humanoid beings...certain thoughts just aren't possible.. As most things an animal does or does not boil down to experience.. which is why certain predators in the animal kingdom never even once changed their tactics.. as it always worked.. there will always be that other animal fallin' for it..
Deedi
I agree on the leashes, some animals are not well behaved and need to be under control when walking around the city. I trust Belomi, since she never ran away or harmed another living being, so I feel confident without a leash and would mourn the day I would have to use one due to laws imposing it on us.
Professor Rathmir Fallowweald
I wouldn't mind a law imposing such in the city. Perhaps with a limitation on size... or classification. A little dog like yours won't maim anyone, but these bears and what not, certainly will.
Deedi
But would a leash help there? No one is strong enough to hold back a bear on a leash.
Professor Rathmir Fallowweald
Let's include a muzzle. And a harness. How about magical bindings. Or shall we simply stop letting bears into our cities.
Deedi
I agree that this is a severe issue, a muzzle may help with it but also could irritate the animal enough to make it angry in the first place.
Lady Lylith Dustcloud
Well.. certain animals should not be allowed in cities.. but even then.. a gryphon can potentially cause more harm then a bear...and still they are widely used.. BUT.. a bear is rarely to never domesticated... and those that are.. lived a tragic life.
Deedi
Plus I am sure there are nice bears and then there are bear jerks, painting bears with a broad brush is not helpful.
Professor Rathmir Fallowweald
We wouldn't want to seem bear-ist, would we.
Be they good or bad bears, they shouldn't walk the streets. Neither should gryphons. Those that fly above our heads can stay, they have riders to keep them in tow. Let's remember that we keep animals in pens for a reason. We have stables, for a reason. And if that's too small space for them, let's convert Goldshire into a massive animal care center. Ridding the world of two problems at once.
Deedi
I would wager that a stable compartment is the horse's equivalent to your bedroom.
Lady Lylith Dustcloud
We have stables to make it logistically easier.. And [Goldshire] is.. already an.. animal care center with.. lots of ridin'..
Halite Rocksalt
Moving on…!